EachOther’s First Podcast – No Going Back – Interview With Peter Hoar

Along with the launch of our first podcast, we provide below a full transcript of the interview, lightly edited for accessibility, for people who might want to dig a bit deeper into what’s being said.

You can listen to the podcast here:

The concept for this podcast first came during the early days of lockdown. As horrifying news about the impact of COVID and lockdowns across the world emerged, we also saw groups of Italians singing out from their balconies in a beautiful moment of connection described as the resilience of ordinary people. And this wasn’t the only place where people were coming together to make a point – Spain sang too, and in Brazil people were banging saucepans in solidarity to protest against Bolsonaro.

In addition to coming together as a community, there were also calls to improve things for the future, or rather to “build back better”, which is a term for the reconstruction phase that creates resilience against future disasters.

But what if the opportunity afforded us at this liminal moment is greater than building a stronger dam or higher walls? What if we take the opportunity to change every aspect of life that hadn’t been working before? What if we take the opportunity to listen to people who were already doing things differently?

Arundhati Roy wrote about this opportunity to do something differently, seeing the pandemic as “a portal, a gateway between one world and the next.” Making change out of trauma is at the heart of human rights. In 1948, people came together in solidarity to create a means by which to ensure the atrocities of the war never happened again. Out of darkness came a new roadmap to ensure the rights of all people everywhere and The Universal Declaration of Human Rights was adopted by the UN General Assembly on 10 December 1948.

While the pandemic afforded us the opportunity to make change, we also realise – and have seen – that shifts can just as quickly shift back. When I came up with the idea for this podcast, I wanted to hear from people who had already made something different happen, whether working on a project that features the community it represents, or founding an organisation that sets off down a different road because they felt they had no other choice. I wanted to celebrate the connectivity, the optimism and the hope on display amid all the grieving and fear, not only during the pandemic.

I was on the lookout for stories about people coming together to make a collective difference, stories about the implementation of huge change, and about how this might offer a different vision of the world.

Many of the interviews I did were during lockdown, including a couple from right at the beginning of the pandemic, but all of them still have big lessons and insights for us now.

Welcome to our first podcast and our first season of No Going Back…

TRANSCRIPT OF PODCAST

Sarah Wishart
You are listening to a podcast from EachOther. EachOther are an unusual sort of human rights charity in that we use independent journalism, storytelling and filmmaking to talk about human rights. Our work is grounded in seeking out the lived experience of ordinary people affected by human rights issues in the widest sense. We prioritise voices from affected communities all over the UK, involving people in the process of developing their own stories rather than talking for or over them. We have lots of ideas about the kinds of stories we might get to bring you with our podcasts, but under lockdown, what we became really interested in was the ways we’ve all been doing things differently. Some of these interviews were recorded some time ago, but all of them still have really fascinating lessons and insights as to how we might do things differently going forward. I’m Sarah Wishart, and welcome to our first podcast, ‘No Going Back.

I’m really delighted that for our first episode of ‘No Going Back’, I was able to interview Peter Hoar, who’s a director for film and television. Peter directed and executive produced ‘It’s A Sin’, a five-part series that followed a group of young friends as they embraced London’s gay scene in the 90s and confronted the tragic effects of AIDs on that community. Created and written by Russell T. Davis, it aired on Channel Four in January 2021, with glowing five star reviews, and had over 6.5 million viewers in the first week, making it Channel Four’s biggest ever drama launch. The show’s been nominated for countless awards. And in 2022. Peter won a best ‘Director of Fiction’ BAFTA for the show. He also directed the pilot and finale of The Umbrella Academy’s’ first season for Netflix, and has directed episodes of ‘Altered Carbon’, ‘Iron Fist’, ‘Daredevil’ and ‘The Defenders’ for Marvel, Netflix, as well as two episodes of ‘Cloak and Dagger’ for Disney. Peter has done so many fascinating projects, but it was ‘It’s A Sin’, show, I want to talk to him about the most. We started our chat with the idea how TV shows have the opportunity to reflect and echo back moments of time at us and how it spoke to my experience of London in the late 90s.

Sarah Wishart
I was in London in the 90s and it was really resonant. I sent it all to my gay friends who don’t watch that much TV. And they were like, Oh, my God it is like running around the Two Brewers…

Peter Hoar
That was reflective of where we were at. Because I was hanging around with gay men, we were always having the test. And I remember one time one friend, it was unequivocal. And we were like, what, what there’s a there’s like a third diagnosis!? ‘Yes, you’ve got it’. ‘No, you haven’t’ and unequivocal. And while we waited however long, the stupid amount of time… Exactly. I think there’s little elements of all the places I’ve been to in those bars and clubs. I was in ‘Heaven’ in the 90s. Mine was the late 90s. I came out in 92. But I had a five year relationship. My naughty years were 97 to 2002, or 2003 or something like that. That’s when I don’t remember much. But I do think that that period, the 90s was equally as relevant in a different way. Because nothing had gone away, there was still a trickle of information, still, people dying, and in fact, exponentially more and more and more people dying. However, there were two things to deal with – this concoction of drugs. I had a friend who was taking something like 25 pills in the morning. It was just unbelievable what was expected. But of course it’s a life saver, still. So you did it. But they were so ill, it knocked them at the same time as trying to pick them up. And then there was the stigma because people still hadn’t really accepted, it took years for people to really go, oh, actually, I can’t catch it from touching somebody. Plus, of course, the fear of sex. I think I was one of those people. It was my generation. I was 18 when the advert came out for the gravestone. I think even though I hadn’t become aware of my own sexuality, I knew that sex was dangerous. And I think that affected me a lot. I was always scared. Yes! Weeks!

Sarah Wishart
I know months! I don’t know. It was really long. And we were waiting to find out what his result was, what unequivocal meant. And he had to do it again. That was terrifying, I remember.

Peter Hoar
Yeah, I remember my first test, I was in Liverpool. And so it was very late on in the process. And we touch on that in ‘It’s A Sin’ because they have their tests in Episode Three after Colin’s diagnosis, because they were, “oh, my god, if it can get him”. I don’t know if it was made clear is that was actually it wasn’t like they avoided having a test before. But it’s actually that there wasn’t one. So we’re already six years into an epidemic. And now there is a test and thinking about that in relation to now.  It’s like, we’ve gone so far in a year. We’ve gone through testing, we’ve gone through testing and tracing, we’ve gone through through we’ve got the vaccines, we’ve not just got one vaccine, we’ve got six or seven vaccines, and of course, I know why! Because everybody’s affected. So therefore there’s a little bit more of an impetus. But yeah, so that was the first time you could get tested and they they all went, “Oh my God, I’ve got to do that”. But I got tested in Liverpool. I was so scared and I’ll never forget going in for the result, which I think again, six something weeks later, so I spent all of those times thinking about, I’d have moments where you’d go, you’d remember a person you’d been with and going, “Oh my God, was I safe enough? Was I safe at all? I can’t”, you know, whatever. And I remember going to get the result. And as I she opened the door, and I walked in, I’d just crossed the threshold, and she just closed the door, and she went “Just to let you know, you’re negative”. And I think about it a lot. Because she, I think that’s the best thing you could do. It was like, I’m not going to put you through any more misery. I’m not even going to let you sit down. Everything’s fine. I sat down with her. And she was the first person to say to me, because I said, I was quite worried because I, you know, I don’t think I said blow jobs. But I said something like, you know, I didn’t know how risky I’d been. And she said, “Well, sometimes you also have to be aware that the statistics might not be right, because some men who contract the disease don’t want to tell you how they got it. So they may have had lots of sex, lots of you know, anal sex with carriers and not wanting to admit that because they were married, or potentially they thought they were straight. So they tell you they had one blow job in you know, down the docks. So we have to write down what they say because it’s it’s a statistic, but we have to we also know (it might not be accurate)”. God that was actually early 2000. So I was really late. I guess, in my way of thinking, I’d only really been promiscuously out. (I don’t like the word promiscuous). I’d been active since 97, 98. So it felt like, it’s still a long time God to tell. I mean, that’s not a good advert for being responsible. But

Sarah Wishart
Yeah, there’s a lot going on, isn’t it? I mean, it’s a kind of, like, get over that hump to trust the medical profession. You know, I didn’t! All my tests were done in sex clinics, I never went near the doctors, because the fear I remember was that it was attached to things like you wouldn’t be able to get a mortgage,

Peter Hoar
Yes!

Sarah Wishart
You wouldn’t be able to get loans from banks.

Peter Hoar
Yeah. I had to do, medicals for my job, and I just thought that that would be affected, it would have to go on that. And, you know, again, you see advances was slow, but they were they were advances, they were making progress. But I don’t think we were mentally or I say ‘we’, we were, we were doing better than anyone but but the world wasn’t  making leaps and I think even with ‘It’s A Sin’ after the first episode went out, Channel Four was contacted by The Terrence Higgins Trust, who’d worked very closely with Russell and said, “You know, this is amazing. We’re getting a lot of feedback already. But would you mind being partner with us to let people know that it’s actually a lot it’s okay, now, you know, not okay, sorted. But it’s, it’s okay, don’t go back into a fearful position. Based on what you’ve just seen. The past was disgusting and horrible. We have improved. There is hope. There are people to talk to”. And so they then ran a campaign and all the actors did a little piece to camera and then just said, you know, “Undetectable equals un-transmittable”, all of these things, which, even now some people still didn’t know. So they weren’t sure what that meant. The feedback was that undetectable just meant, oh, well, you know, it was like I don’t know how you’d explain it, really. But they just thought it was still a curse.

Sarah Wishart
Undetectable means it’s present?

Peter Hoar
It means you still have contracted a virus which lives in your system, but undetectable means no one else can get it from you. Plus, of course, PrEP you know, so much has changed for that reason. And but then again, it also stirred all the negativity because there were people running press articles saying, you know, is this right? Should the NHS be prioritising PrEP and not cancer treatment? How dare they! It’s exactly what they said, well what they have said for the last 40 years. It felt like another reason why the show I think was successful, because you can always go back to those stories and go, see, that’s why we still have to tell them because there’s still progress that needs to be made.

Sarah Wishart
I wanted to continue talking about the concept of this podcast, and what it means to be radicalised in relation to HIV rights. And the issues raised in the show.

You know, the whole principle of my of this podcast is the idea of “No Going Back” of a moment that changes and offers an opportunity to do things differently. And to me the relationship between HIV and human rights is actually a big deal. There was this point where it perhaps radicalised, you know, a generation. If Richard had survived, then there would have been maybe a point where he’s on those protests and he changes his perspective.

Peter Hoar
Yes, I think the idea of radicalization definitely occurred, I think it occurred in a certain type of individual which, you know, we’re not all like that, and I think where I understand Ritchie a bit is not by voting conservative, but it’s certainly coming from a conservative household. Because he was sheltered, right? He wasn’t given an outward looking upbringing. He was shuttered in and sheltered and of course, having different thoughts, different feelings, being different to the rest of the world. There was no encouragement for him. So so it would have been a big deal for him to be radicalised at that point. Yes, though, his experiences would have changed. I think he would have been a slow burner. I mean, that’s what I love about the show. He’s not perfect. And I like that because, you know, that’s not a reason to think somebody deserves anything and or reason that he should be saved or otherwise.

Sarah Wishart
I think it was really interesting to get that as well, because like, you know, there isn’t this “All gay people are this”. They’re going to be positioned like this. They’re always going to vote like this.

Peter Hoar
Yeah. And that was really the epicentre of the whole new line of agenda setting or decision making because people were having to ask questions like they’ve never asked before. How do I feel about this? Like I mentioned the word promiscuity and people were discussing, “Am I? Am I wrong? Am I morally wrong? Because I have sex with you know too many people? Is this something I should be shameful about. And of course, you know, shame being the key theme of “It’s A Sin” but it’s like people who hadn’t had that thought.. there was a lot of inward thinking, a lot of introspection and that’s not good because not only were they doing that secretly at home, the world was pushing them in as well, you know, the newspapers, and whatever and then to go back to the show, and obviously Russell, “Queer As Folk” came along in 99. And felt like another release. I think for lots of people. I was openly gay at that point, but I still watched it secretly. I was I was living at home, at my Mum and Dad’s because I was working on a TV show as a location manager and they put me up and I gave them rent basically. But I still waited until they’d all gone to bed and you know, watched it on my own. So I mean, look, I was 30 year old man and I still felt like something was was you know, it’s strange.

Sarah Wishart
As the characters start facing not only the prospect of this unknown untreatable disease, but also having to deal with the stigma and bigotry that suddenly erupted, one of the characters able to help at that precise moment was lesbian lawyer, Lizbeth Farooqi who fights tooth and nail for the rights of the characters suddenly facing human rights abuses. Peter and I talked about the role of protest and community.

I think that A. that you’ve got that protest sort of scene which was amazing. And then also, you’ve got Lizbeth, the rights lawyer, who comes in. That challenge is very present because of that sort of legal….

Peter Hoar
Yeah, I think all of those stories are interesting. I mean, what it was an indication of is community. How important community is, and was and will always be, because if you raise your head up, when you’re at your lowest in a group like ours, you can find somebody who will help you. I’m also just reminded my brain does this by the way, it goes off on little tangents. But I was reminded of a friend of mine, an incredible man, a director I worked with on ‘Hollyoaks’ and he had been working in the business for forever. He was an artist, he used to live in Paris, he designed a front cover of a record for Edith Piaf and met her. He was in Soho in the 50s. And he had all those friends that you can imagine he was going to all the right places, and he told me about Soho, and I said, “it must have been so strange, being illegal, be able to be arrested at any point”. And he said something along the lines of “Oh, my darling, it was delicious. We had such a fun time”. And I said but didn’t you feel? He said, No, you know, I mean, you had to do things a certain way. But you knew he said you knew who it was. And of course, he’s talking about Soho and not like Yorkshire Dales. But he said, you knew who they were you we all knew who to look out for. And he told me a story of whenever the police tried to entrap people. So what would often happen is you’d go into the urinal, and it would be a policeman who’s standing next to you, and they would arrest you, and they give you the cards, or whatever it was, and say you’ll be in court on Monday morning. And he said, what you do is you’d go and tell one of your friends in the community that it had happened. And they’d say, right, come with me. They’d take you to one of these bars that were hidden away in Soho, and you’d go through and they’d say, go talk to John over there. And you’d go and talk to John and John would say, When is your court date? And you’d say Monday 10 o’clock. Ok. Right. Fine. Leave it with me. And then you’d go to court on Monday thinking what’s going to happen, and then sitting in front of you with all the robes and finery was John, he was the judge! And then you’d be like, Well, you’re not going to do it again. No. You’ve learned your lesson? Okay. Just go. And, and he said, that’s what we did. We all looked out for each other. We had people at all different levels of society. And we just looked out each other. Of course, people fell through the cracks. We know this. And, and there are tragedies everywhere. But it just reminded me of then, when you move forward. And Jill goes, Pete will help us, she just immediately knows that Pete’s the guy for help. So they go to Pete and they’re at the exchange and all of what’s important about all of this, of course, is by taking part, Jill knew all this because she was taking part she was on the phones at the gay switchboard. So if she hadn’t taken part in her community, she may not have known these answers, and I think there’s a lesson in that it’s like and maybe radicalization sounds very, very, you know, like a big deal but actually just be there, just take part, just turn up, you know, be one of the gang of people that says this isn’t right. And I’m going to be I’m going to be a number to be counted if that’s what it comes down to. I’ll be that person. But yeah, she knew Pete, Pete knew Lizbeth, Lizbeth comes in and flaunts herself, and is incredibly smart at the same time. There’s no question that Lizbeth didn’t know what she couldn’t win this. And it actually said, I think in the stage’s direction it says, ‘A Muslim, a Muslim lesbian woman holding court she’s loving this’ or something like that. And it was like it was going on all over the place. But yes, allies and people in the know They were everywhere. But I can imagine also that for some people, it was easier to retract than reach out. And I think that is still still the case that yes, maybe shows like this help people realise you need to stand up.

Sarah Wishart
One of the aspects that’s featured in the last column inches about the show focuses on how key characters are played by gay actors. I talked to Peter about the implication of this sort of representation.

Sarah Wishart

One of the things I wanted to talk about was how important it was that this, and how interesting it is that this is a British kind of like representation, because I was I was at uni in 96 – 99, in London, and I did drama, and we studied ‘Angels in America’. I was really into that sort of narrative, and a lot of the narratives of the HIV history to me were American ones, like ‘Tales of The City’. Do you know what I mean? So

Peter Hoar
Yes.

Sarah Wishart
Even though I also read a lot of Derek Jarman (so I did have that sort of narrative coming through in some ways), but it’s really interesting to look at this as a British piece.

Peter Hoar
Yes. I mean, there’s a lot of things we could suppose about why the British didn’t do more to tell the story. And it might be that innate repression, if it is diagnosable, that we all suffer from. I say we all, sweeping statement, but you know, there is a buttoned up-ness compared to and let me know, I also think that and again, this doesn’t actually explain why we haven’t got big stories, British stories before now. But the American stories are often so close to the actual outbreak and the real heart of the epidemic that there there’s a lot more rage, there’s a lot more anger about the whole thing. And actually, they’re incredible pieces of work. But they’re not easy pieces of work to watch and the heartbreaking devastating, as ours was, but we were able to inject joy and love and happiness and life because maybe because it was further down the line. Maybe that’s the Britishness. Certainly it’s the Russell-ness, the Russell part! Russell was like, it has to be about life, it has to be about the life lost, not the impending doom. In fact, I was talking to my friends last night on a zoom, and one of them said, I couldn’t get over how quickly I fell in love with those characters. That’s what made it all work. I think that’s where the other stories not suffered, because that’s not what they did. But that’s where the others had a harder journey for us as an audience, because that’s not what they were trying to say. They were like really raging against it all and going this is, you know, such is so unjust. But that doesn’t really answer the question! Why is it good to have a British version? I mean, I think it’s good to see a story told, it’s always good to see a universal story told from a different angle. I think, actually, maybe people don’t even think about that universality, I think the American story because it it, you know, didn’t originate in America. But you know what I mean, in America, in San Francisco. And in New York, there were two pockets of the epicentres of, you know, where this all kicked off. And so I think some people have maybe a skewed view of it. We were lucky enough with our show to attract quite a wide audience. For one of the first times on Channel Four, it’s like the the ideal, the holy grail of TV is when you can get 18 to 55 year olds all watching the same thing and getting something out of it. And I think a lot of people in that older group hadn’t really taken into account how devastating it had been here. They thought, Oh, yes, it must have come here. It did come here. I know it did! Elton John talks about it. But I don’t know if they knew that it was as early as that, you know, I think they maybe thought it was something that sort of filtered over. So I think it’s always important to hear our story. But I think it’s more than anything. It’s about our story now, I think. I think that’s what I feel is the most important thing about  ‘Its A Sin’. It feels like it’s the right time somehow. And it’s not COVID related, but of course that helps.

Sarah Wishart
You know, looking back to Queer As Folk, obviously there was quite a lot of straight actors…

Peter Hoar
Yes. You know, good for them. They got, they went right in. And we saw that

Sarah Wishart 

They did.

Peter Hoar

And, and they did well. And they were taken to our hearts by both predominantly, I think back then gay community, and they’ve all got incredible careers out of it. So that’s good. But I think again, the authenticity we achieved is second to none, with with what we did, you know, casting gay actors, I think it would have been harder in 1999 to cast gay actors, because I’m not sure they would have come forward as much. So that’s a key issue. But yes, I’m going back to us, our authenticity, of choosing gay actors to play gay roles in a drama, where we were talking about an age group of people they were representing, it’s like, these are the people that would have died, these this band of actors in their early teens to 25, or whatever. A lot of them went and I I did some research and strange to say this is research. But I I’m a big TV watcher, I used to watch lots of Doctor Who and  I was watching lots of old dramas and thinking oh he’s handsome and where did what happened to him and I’d look him up on IMDb, and then it would just end, you know, mid 80s. So I then go on Wikipedia. And inevitably, honestly, they were all taken by AIDs. Obviously Russell’s friend Dursley, who was in Doctor Who that we made a tribute to and I remember looking him up and thinking God no, he’s, and it’s not about being a handsome cause it’s not but it just felt like this is it. 

Sarah Wishart

 I looked him up and this beautiful boy, cut down and this entire generation disappeared.

Peter Hoar

Yeah, and I think what’s fair to say for him as well, he did Doctor Who in 87. I think he died in 93. But got the diagnosis around that time, a Doctor Who and then tirelessly campaigned to his end for HIV awareness, AIDS awareness and raising money and stuff like that. So and I think he was a life force. And I think that’s also what Russell remembered. He was just such an energy. Russell said to us, he said, he said, I know this is going to come up, and I know we’ll get challenged on it. But he said, I also had an occasion where someone came up to me about Cucumber and said, Why did you cast a straight boy in this role? And he said, I didn’t have an answer. That person said to him, I think it was in a social situation, possibly in a club or a bar. And he said, Did you look hard enough? And it was quite accusatory, but he said, Did you look hard enough? And Russell said, at that point, he thought, like maybe I didn’t, you know, maybe I didn’t. And of course, Cucumber was not that long ago. So I think back in 99, I could have, I could understand an argument why it might have been difficult to see those people coming forward for roles, particularly Charlie Hunnam’s age, you know, he was only like 18 or something himself, it would have been very difficult. But Cucumber, there’s no excuse. And maybe that hurt him a bit. Because it’s not like Russell doesn’t care. Russell cares enormously. So I think he thought you know what, maybe I didn’t look hard enough, I’m not going to make that mistake. Again. It just seemed and has proven to be the right thing to do. And it’s not just the right thing to do. It’s the only option, I think, is to do this,

Sarah Wishart
You know, ensuring that the stories are that different kinds of stories have been told by different kinds of people feels like a small thing. But actually it’s a really big deal for people to be able to see themselves.

Peter Hoar

Visibility is everything. I mean, you know, I think stories that’s why As Queer As Folk was so important to me because I saw people who I represented me on screen in a big bold way. Colourful way, happy way fun way and that’s Russell’s talked about this recently about why he didn’t include HIV and AIDS in that, well he did. It’s like but it’s it happens elsewhere. He said, Well, that’s not that story. I wasn’t going to tell that story. I wanted to tell her much more visible Exciting, you know, forward thinking story of owning who we are and being proud and all our pride, literally pride, right? So and I remember, I watched that, as I say, as a 30 year old man who had been out for a few more than that five years or so. And I think it was like one of the maybe two programmes or two things I’ve been able to see. I mean, I was aware of, and this is a different conversation, but I was aware of some, you know, gay movies that were around, and I’ve watched some, and I’ve been so terribly sad, I’ve been affected by them, because they were inevitably surrounding death, loss. And nobody seemed to come out of a gay movie, a gay theme story. Well, and and so I think, again, why Queer As Folk was so important to me and other gay men is that it was a life giving sort of thing it was, you know, it turned into fantasy. I remember that not being happy about that. But they went off into the sky and into the in the four by four, and I’m like, what why did he do that, , and that can be debated for forever, is like, why did you do that? Is it fantasy? Or is it reality? But visibility is everything and you only know this, if you’re part of a minority that’s underrepresented seems very hard. It’s very trite way of putting it, but a lot of people might say, oh, gays are everywhere. You know, it’s Graham Norton, and Boy George, and all of that, and I’ll go through a list of people and you’ll be like, first start. A lot of these people didn’t exist in their lives visibly for a long time. So you can’t just bring them into the conversation, Elton John, for certain, Boy George and other, you know, he’s group probably all very well. But outside of that, you know, people will just say, Oh, he’s just dressed as a bit funny, isn’t it? And that will be it. No conversations would really be having happening. George Michael, so many people anyway, that’s why the 80s is so powerful for our story. But yeah, you know, true visibility, and unashamed visibility, visibility, that doesn’t have to. Also, I think this is important now not having to explain itself, you shouldn’t have to make a story with gay themes or characters in that are just there for to explain that gay theme and the story. It’s like Superman could be gay, but you don’t have to make it about that. It would be it just is, it’s just – that would be nice. In the same way that whiteness or straightness is everywhere. Without being explained, I think we ought to be moving into that world where everybody is just who they are. That’s why fantasy is so good as a genre, because you don’t have to explain yourself. You know, and that’s also wrong, because we should be doing it in reality, but you know, you can make a fantasy of all colours, Creed’s shapes, sizes, everything, beliefs, and no one questions it.

Sarah Wishart
I’ve seen some criticism on Twitter that the stories don’t include everybody. Right? So you know, so there isn’t gay women kind of like within it? Yeah, there’s like, you know, it’s still quite white. But I’ve also seen some supporting things, which is, we need more of all these stories. But you can’t expect this one story to tick every single base

Peter Hoar
No, something I said earlier about about what story we are here to tell. I think that is relevant. And maybe I don’t want it to sound like that’s what we will retreat to as programme makers going well, we didn’t want to tell that story. So don’t blame us. I mean, there is a responsibility. And it’s important, and we carry it with the highest regard. But yes, you can’t do everything I do feel we had, we had a little bit more in one scene from the lesbian nurse, where she explained, and this is why we didn’t include it in the end because it didn’t feel comfortable. It was forced. And that’s not how it should be that I don’t think is progress. But she had a speech to Ritchie it was about her being a lesbian nurse, the reason that she’s there and doing this business is because that no one else wants to touch him, you know, and that’s the truth of the day is that mostly those wards were filled with lesbians or gay men, because no one else wanted to take the jobs on. The nurse Lorraine, you know, actress Ashley, you can make your own call on that you can watch those scenes and go is she isn’t she but then I also think there’s power in that because it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. You can have the debate in your head about whether you thought she was a lesbian nurse or not. And if we’ve done our job right, then I think a lot of people would go and investigate the story anyway and find that 

Sarah Wishart
There just needs to be more openness in programming channels and and broadcasters and commissioners taking on that and saying we need, you know, we need more of this not not that this one show has to speak to every single aspect of this particular lifestyle.

Peter Hoar
I think we did okay. But there’s always work to be done. If your drama touches real lives and talks about real situations and uses them for the purposes of entertainment, you have a responsibility. So I never want to deny that, I always want to think that we can do more. We did have that conversation a lot during the process of making it. Is this good enough? Are we doing enough? Have we done enough here? You know, because obviously again, Russell writes a lot. We shot about 60 minutes for each episode and only 42 of them ever made it out. Sometimes its lines, sometimes it’s scenes but but yeah, we have to decide what we keep and what we don’t. So that can sometimes go wrong. And I think mentioning that the you know, the lesbian nurse Lorraine could have been one of those moments we should have perhaps done more to keep those those lines in. But also more women characters, generally, we’ve got that or they’re, you know, all the ones we wrote, they’re there. So you think to do things properly. It’s always about having a conversation, having a debrief and thinking, you know, where we can make important decisions going forward. So representation, diversity, visibility, are all things I can do as I choose my team. I think more importantly, my team as well as my cast, I think in casting, we’ve made great progress, still a long way to go. I’m grateful to be learning about through my husband as much as anybody else, all the people I work with, and the people I watch and follow on online. If we have conversations as broadcasters, about making a gay story, we’re not doing enough in that respect, either. Because it’s wider and broader. And we’ve got to tell, we’ve got to tell so many other stories. My key thing is let’s not make it just little pockets, like, Oh, we’re making a story about a transgender character. Great! Tick! Yes, it’s great. But you’re putting it into a box and saying that’s our transgender box, I think what would really work for visibility is that everybody sees, everybody has access to it. And I think it’s very easy to say, Oh, I don’t like transgender drama, I’m not going to watch. But I think you’ve got to be challenging people very, very, you know, you’ve got to make them watch. That’s why soap opera has such a great job to do. Because it can do that, it can include all people and tell all stories.

Sarah Wishart
There’s a charity called On Road Media, where they try and place those sorts of stories within soaps, because it becomes much more acceptable to kind of, I don’t know, find those stories, listen to those stories and change people’s perspective on things. And also, I feel like, then you’re not, it’s not just the fantasy bit, but you’re not telling trauma stories, you’re not expecting people from those communities to have to tell that trauma story over again. And in fact, it just becomes a story about their relationship, which is mundane. Or do you know, I mean, you tell you tell those sorts of stories within soaps.

Peter Hoar
Yeah, exactly. You know, people who have who are transgender still go shopping, they still put clothes on and go, well, I look nice in that, and they still go out for a drink with their friends. So it’s like, it is about, you know, removing the demonization of all these groups. And, and I, you know, I still know for a fact that a lot of my straight friends haven’t seen It’s A Sin. And it’s not because they don’t care about me or about the show. It’s just that it’s just something they can avoid. We’re lucky, we’ve made an impact. I think a lot of people now are going oh, God, I shouldn’t be watching it. I’ve not seen it. It’s only five episodes, I’ll do it. And coming away happy. But yeah, I think it’s sometimes very easy to avoid these things. Social media helps a lot. Because we can see if we want to, of course, it’s still about choosing who you follow. But younger people are way better. At doing this and opening their minds and going, I want to hear this person’s story. And they are very brave people telling you of their journey. And I think sometimes when you compare the impact of storytelling between us as broadcasters and social media, we’re way behind, you know, we often feel like an old uncle or old relative sort of lumbering around going, I’ll tell you about, it’s a bit like grandpa in The Simpsons going so going through all his stories, and it’s like, they’re great stories. Still, we’re still telling great stories, but it feels like we’re late to the party.

Sarah Wishart
What do you think about visions for the future in terms of storytelling, what would you like to do next? What would you like to see next?

Peter Hoar
Well, I think, you know, I’ve touched on where I think problems come whereby you, you know, you commission, a drama, where there’s only one outcome, i.e. it’s only about a certain group in society, which is a great thing for visibility, and all of that, but it still keeps that, I hate to use the word ghetto, but it keeps that that feel of it’s okay, it’s a box, it’s like, you’re okay, it’s the John Inman thing. You’re okay, as long as you stay in those in those confines, so therefore, it’s not okay. Therefore, it’s not really doing much. It’s, it’s also a little bit like a zoo, right? Where you go in and look at all of these things, and it’s perfectly safe, they’re not going to come and get you. And I think what I want to see more and more is stories being told, that are just open from the very start, and we are in control of those stories. It’s like I get annoyed, bless them, the BBC when they commissioned another Jane Austen or something, and I’m like, great, you know, lovely, wonderful stories, but it’s not helping anybody unless you do a Bridgerton Unless you do that. And of course, it was Netflix. And of course, it was Shonda Rhimes. Because who else was going to just go – fuck it, I’m doing this and they don’t have to explain themselves and why should they? Like so? So look, I mean I’d love to see more of that brave, and it shouldn’t be brave, but it needs to be brave commissioning of stories where, where it’s not about what they call box ticking. And if we’re going to progress, we mustn’t be token we must be inclusive, so diverse and inclusive. So sometimes diverse makes you sound like you’re disappear, you’re going away. And actually inclusive is probably a better word of what I feel is necessary. And those stories exists, we’ve just got to make sure that they’re the ones we champion, I think,

Sarah Wishart  
And as a final thing. Can I just tell you how much I loved the representation of the “La”. Of that of that thing that happens so much with all my friends about you, you have something and it becomes a shared moment. And then you boil it down and down and down and down and down until it just becomes this tiny thing that just like

Peter Hoar 
Yes!

Sarah Wishart
Reminds everybody or it’s a connector. I thought that the show did that incredibly well, which was obviously writing and directing and the acting well, but that was just beautiful.

Peter Hoar
It was interesting because Russell was very it’s Russell’s memory. So it’s real. Russell and real Jill had this moment, and it came from Wales with his gang and it sort of came with him to London. But he was very for, he had little “La” rehearsal with the actors and they’d go “Laaaaar” and he’d go “No! La! La!”, so he’d make them get it right. And of course I was slightly at a distance going, well, I get that but I want it to be this gang. You know, it’s these people that I need it to feel really excited and make them laugh and whatever. But we shot that scene where they all come running down the corridor to say, “I’m off for my interview, you know, bye bye” and oh my god, it was the cutest thing ever. You know, and I think going back, I’ve said about how you can fall in love with our character so easily. And I think that’s one of those moments and they walk in and they show how good they look for their interview. And it’s like, Mum-Jill on the corner going, “You be good today”. “La!” “La!” And Colin forgets, so he has to come back and “La”, and, you know, it’s all the themes of the show all rolled into one, it’s about it’s a code, you know, it’s queer coding, if you like, it’s like, we know about this and nobody else does. And we are a community and we’re together and we’re safe. And if we stick together it’ll be alright. And it’s like, you know, that is what “La” is all about. And it’s gone crazy. I’ve got three T shirts I think with “La” on, and Philip Normal’s being the well they’re all They’re all incredible but I think Philip started it and swamped with orders. I think he’s made like £250,000 or £300,000 for Terrence Higgins so unbelievable unbelievable yeah.

Sarah Wishart
I want to play just a little extract from ‘Its A Sin’ which is the moment when the in-joke Peter and I were just discussing was born in a performance by Ritchie arguably the central character.

Ritchie
Ladies and gentlemen… (and you Gregory). Hooray together here upon for the star turn of the night. I give you Miss Rachel Tozer.

Crowd
Wooooooooooooooooo. Whistles

Jill
Oh my god

Ash
Rachel he’s Rachel!

Jill
He looks like Nana Mouskouri!

Ritchie
Please my people. Silencio. I would like to give you a song.

Ash
He looks amazing

Crowd
Shhhhh, shhhh shhhh. Wooooooooooo.

Ritchie
La!

Ash
Was that IT!?

Crowd
*Thunderous applause and screaming* Bravo bravo bravo!